https://logicastra.blogspot.com/2021/11/putting-end-to-hanumana-topic-part-1.html (this was a "link" to it).
Starting it again.
In this post i am going to prove 3 important things, hanuman was not a bhagwan/avatar of shiva. And hanuman is no match for Arjuna. In addition to that i will be showing how Ashwathama is greater than hanutati.
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He was never called a "god" in any of the books, parva's or chapters of either main source (Mahabharat/Ramayana).
1: Debunking the claims of him being a Rudravtar.
Here's the quote i refer too:
"Aja, Ekapada, Ahivradhna, the unvanquished Pinakin, Rita, Pitrirupa, the three-eyed Maheswara, Vrishakapi, Sambhu, Havana, and Iswara--these are the celebrated Rudras, eleven in number, who are the lords of all the worlds."
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[second quoTE]
"And the sons of Sthanu, gifted with great energy, were, it is known, eleven. They were Mrigavayadha, Sarpa, Niriti of great fame: Ajaikapat, Ahivradhna, and Pinaki, the oppressor of foes; Dahana and Iswara, and Kapali of great splendour; and Sthanu, and the illustrious Bharga. These are called the eleven Rudras."
[2nd completion]
ultimate conclusion - your hanutati or Hanuman was not among the mighty Rudras.
2: Debunking the claims involving a quote in Mahabharat.
The quote hanubhakt's used;
"Thou art the mighty ape Hanuman that aided Vishnu in the incarnation of Rama in his expedition against Ravana."
My debunk starts again.
From checking the link any logical person would realise that its an exaggeration because it labels every single thing as "Shiva" which is simply not true as Ravan, Ram were their own personal individuals, they were not fragments, particles, or portions of Shiva, neither was this overrated comedian named Hanuman.
Shiva is considered the Navgrahs:
Thou art Chandramas, thou art Surya, thou art the planet Saturn, thou art the descending node (of the moon), thou art the ascending node, thou art Mangala (Mars), and thou art Vrihaspati (Jupiter) and Sukra (Venus), thou art Vudha (Mercury) thou art the worshipper of Atri's wife, thou art he who shot his shaft in wrath at Sacrifice when Sacrifice fled away from him in the form of a deer.
Shiva is considered the avatar of Vishnu;
Thou art Vamana (the dwarf) who deceived the Asura chief Vali (and depriving him of his sovereignty restored it unto Indra). Thou art the Yogin crowned with success (like Sanatkumara and others). Thou art a great Rishi (like Vasishtha and others).
Balram was considered a avatar of Shiva;
Thou art possessed of might that is always well spent. Thou art he who had assumed the form of Valarama (the elder brother of Krishna)."
Here he was also called "lowest of each devta".
[quote start's] Thou art he that acts. Thou wearest clothes whose warp and woof are made of snakes. Thou art Supreme. Thou art he who is the lowest of the celestials. [end quote]
Even a book was called "ansh of shiva";
"Thou art the Mahabharata and other histories of the kind. Thou art the treatises called Mimansa. Thou art Gautama (the founder of the science of dialectics). Thou art the author of the great treatise on Grammar that has been named after the Moon."
"Thou art the highest form of felicity. Thou art a deity proud of his might. Thou art Sakra." (quoTE 1) "Thou art the king of the Yakshas, called Kuvera, who is thy inseparable associate and who is the Lord of all treasures in the world. Thou art Dhatri. Thou art Sakra." (quOTe 2)
Commentary - No one ever calls Balram, Indra, Kuber a avatar of Shiva. People of india only talk about hanuman, hanuman and hanuman that's it. If even a book can be called "Shiva" then i think its safe to say that the meaning is that this is all an exaggeration to show how important Shiva is meaning that hanuman, indra, balram and kuber were not avatars, anshas or portions. They have no relation to eachother at all.
Another reference in Mahabharat (canon source material) says that Agnidev was a portion of Shiva or was another name for Shiva:
"The Rishis describe Mahadeva as Agni, and Sthanu, and Maheswara; as one-eyed, and three-eyed, of universal form, and Siva or highly auspicious."
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Reasons for Ashwathama being a better warrior than hanutati.
Vajra
Brahmastra
Indrastra
Aindraastra
Narayanastra
Many many other weapon's for example the brahmasira.
I dont need to give evidence for this because of the simple fact that most readers of this blog already know that Ashwathama had access to all of of these weapon's but i will give evidence for everything else because that matters more to me.
If anyone wants me to build a respect thread for him later on i can do that but im sticking with Hanumanji for now.
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Why Arjuna is better than Hanuman.
1) His punch's were as tough as a Vajra's impact:
"The illustrious Arjuna then, taking up his bow and dragging the Kirata with his bow-string, struck him some fierce blows that descended like thunderbolts."
"The mighty son of Pritha then, his mouth smoking with wrath, struck the invincible god in the form of a Kirata, with hi clenched fists, blows that descended like thunderbolts."
What happened to hanuman when he was struck by a Vajra:
"Then, your left cheekbone, zygomatic arch, is broken." [4-66-24] "Then on observing that you are mutilated, highly infuriated is that scent-wafter Air-god." [4-66-25]
IN A FIST FIGHT/BOXING MATCH ARJUN WOULD ANYDAY BEAT HANUMAN.
Also - dont say that your hanutati was a child, the fact is that being from the race of vanars this hanumans power remained the same that it was at birth, kumbhkarn a rakshasa was extremely young when he defeated indra, so this hanuman being a child is not a valid point.
Arjun, Kumbhkarn, Indra had better physical strength than behenchod hanumanji.
The following is a series of quote's and link's to the other weapons Arjun could use to beat Hanuman, this first one was just to prove that Arjun could win against Hanutati even if he was a unarmed fighter.
2) Arjun has the mace of Yama:
"The mace I wield incapable of being baffled by any body. With this weapon thou wilt achieve great deeds." "Received from Yama that weapon duly, along with the Mantras and rite, and the mysteries of hurling and withdrawing it."
3) He defeated elite chariot-warriors:
"Then Partha, encompassed by those great car-warriors, and beholding his car assailed and Keshava attacked in that manner became filled with rage, and overthrew a large number of car-warriors and foot-soldiers."
Proving they were elite's;
"I heard that the Maharatha Sansaptakas of our army appointed for the overthrow of Arjuna were all slain by Arjuna himself."
Hanuman was thrashed by foot soldiers:
"That Hanuma, then being beaten with sticks and fists by the cruel demons, was dragged to the vicinity of Ravana. Then, recognizing that Hanuma, tied with barks of trees and ropes."
Hanuman got dragged around like a toy.
"That Ravana, who was endowed with an extraordinary energy, saw Hanuma the foremost of monkeys, being dragged hither and thither by demons of ugly countenance."
Definition of "drag"; pull (someone or something) along forcefully, roughly
4) Arjun has the Pasupatastra:
This has already been discussed, everyone who knows about Arjuns fight with Shiva also knows he has this weapon.
Hanuman never had any weapon besides ordinary tree's, rocks and stone. Do not believe in fake stories about him using a mace or wielding a club, their are only 2 authentic source's where he was involved in (Mahabharat/Ramayana) neither show him using such a weapon.
5) Arjuna was able to defeat Yadava's:
"That hero of immeasurable splendour who having vanquished single-handed the assembled Yadavas in battle, ravished Subhadra with the consent of Vasudeva."
6) Arjuna defeated the Gandharvas:
"Without him who having gone towards the north had vanquished mighty Gandharva chiefs by hundreds."
7) Arjuna owned the Sammohan arrow, that makes anyone fall unconscious and go to sleep, so hanuman will be vulnerable and defenceless.
"Wielder of the Gandiva who was capable of enduring all foes, evolved another irresistible weapon obtained from Indra, called Sanmohana. And entirely covering the cardinal and other directions with sharp and keen-edged arrows furnished with beautiful feathers, that mighty hero stupefied their senses."
8) Arjuna meditated before he was ever at his peak or prime as a warrior, his spirit energy was so potent that it began to heat the whole earth:
"Son of pritha possessed of great energy is engaged in the most difficult of ascetic austerities on the breast of the Himavat. Heated with his asceticism, the earth is smoking all round, O god of gods. We do not know what his object is for which he is engaged in these austerities. He, however, is causing us pain."
If Hanuman ever did something called "tapasya" i bet no one would feel pain at all.
9) Arjun could negate one million arrows in a split second (he did so during the tenth day):
[quote] "The kings (in that army) quickly sped at Dhananjaya's car myriads upon myriads and millions upon millions of arrows furnished with peacock feathers. Partha, however, checking those arrows by means of his own arrowy showers, began to send those mighty car-warriors to Yama's abode." [end quote].
Analyzing it; first the kings fired a million arrows then Arjun negated all of those arrow's, to do this he would need to at least shoot one million back at them. This was in a few seconds.
Hanuman was a victim of ten arrows from Meghanad:
"Indrajit the wielder of a great bow...........released ten arrows towards Hanuman."
This show's the clear difference between these warriors.
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WRAP UP.
In terms of reaction speed, timing, reflexe's and physical strength, along with versatility etc & variety it is obvious that Arjun would own Hanuman infinity time's, their is no way a lightweight kutta like hanutati would last more than 10 seconds against Arjuna.
If hanutards want to talk about his boon then they need to check the proper source, this fudhu hanuman was injured many times he is not immune to damage by battle, his power never increased after Indra one shotted him.
In combat Hanuman is weak compared to his fellow vanars, all vanars were vulnerable to de@th by Brahmastra.
Before you call me "biased Arjuna fan" understand that i am against most arjun fan's because they have respect for hanuman/hanutati.
Bottom line; dont compare this harami pawansut maruti hanumana to a real man like Arjuna.
Foot soldier's are better fighters than Hanuman, like Duryodhan was more brave than Hanuman's entire family.
Arjun was better than Laxman.
Heirarchy;
"Shiva" "Arjuna" "Krishna" [Mard-tier]
"Ashwathama" "Indra" "Ram" "Bhagdatt" "Drona" "Ravan" "Satyaki" [Top-tier]
"Parshuram" "Bhishma" "Karna" "Ghatotkatch" "Kritvarma" "Dhrishtadyumn" [Mid-tier]
"Nakula" "Yudhisthir" "Sugreev" "Vali" [Low-tier]
"Foot-Soldier's" [weak-tier]
"pawan pootra hanumanji" [namard - tier]
"elephants that were inferior to hanutati" [fodder level].
Thats how the list goes, hanuman is low.
