Wednesday, January 16, 2019

Duryodhana vs Bhima a analysis.

I don't believe Bhima cheated.
1) Yes Gandhari did not ever open her eyes to look at Duryodhana's body but Duryodhana's body was still made of vajra (lightning/thunderbolt/adamantine/indestructible material).
Narrative:
In days of old. O king, we have obtained thee, by ascetic austerities from Maheswara. The upper part of thy body is wholly made of an assemblage of Vajras, and is, therefore, invulnerable to weapons of every description, O sinless one. The lower part of thy body, capable of captivating the female heart by its comeliness was made of flowers by the goddess herself--the wife of Mahadeva. Thy body is thus, O best of kings, the creation of Maheswara himself and his goddess. Therefore, O tiger among kings, thou art of celestial origin, not human.
Source: http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m03/m03250.htm
Bori's version
Analysis: The critical edition also includes this. So it must be true.
Source: Vana Parva Section 240
2) Did Hanuman ever support Bhima in his battles?
Yes but all he did was utter roars, these roars would rob enemies of their lives. But we do not know (who) these enemies were.
KMG
Quote:

Even by thy prowess shall we conquer all foes." Thus addressed, Hanuman said unto Bhimasena, 'From fraternal feeling and affection, I will do good unto thee, by diving into the army of thy foes copiously furnished with arrows and javelins. And, O highly powerful one, O hero, when thou shall give leonine roars, then shall I with my own, add force to shouts. Remaining on the flagstaff of Arjuna's car will I emit fierce shouts that will damp the energy of thy foes. Thereby ye will slay them easily.'
Analysis: Have we ever read any time in the Kurukshetra war that any of Bhima's enemies died due to a roar of Hanuman? No. So we can say that Hanuman was not telling the truth. This is different from BORI CE, because BORI says that the roars will kill people, in kmg it is said that Hanuman's roar will damp the energy of Bhima's enemies. Then Bhima can slay them with ease. But even that is not true as in the main wars none of these roars of Hanuman ever happened.
Source: http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m03/m03150.htm
BORI CE
Vana Parva Section 150
Hanuman said that his roars would rob the enemies of their lives.
Look at Duryodhana's death (according to BORI CE).
This has no mention of the roar of Hanuman. It's safe to conclude that Hanuman was exaggerating or that KMG is more correct because it says that Hanuman's roars would help bhima slay them easier. So to see whether Kmg is right or not we will gave to see whether hanuman roared to weaken Duryodhana, but knowing the reality hanuman never ever roared even once during the final fight of Duryodhana. So hanuman supporting Bhima in battles is not true. Only the roars of Duryodhana are mentioned in the death battle.
3) Here is the full text of the mace fight from BORI Critical Edition
(Shalya Parva Section 55):
"The great-souled Pandava raised his club and rushed at the great-souled one. Vrikodara forcefully attacked Dhritarashtra’s son. The elephants present there trumpeted and the horses neighed. The Pandavas desired victory and their weapons blazed."
(Shalya Parva Section 56):
Part 1
"On seeing that Bhimasena had approached, Duryodhana was not distressed in his soul. He roared loudly and attacked him with force. Like horned bulls, they clashed against each other. As they struck each other, there were great and thunderous sounds. That tumultuous battle commenced and it made the body hair stand up. Wishing to triumph, they fought each other in that battle, like Indra and Prahlada.22 The spirited ones fought with clubs and blood covered all their limbs. The greatsouled ones looked like flowering kimshukas. That great and extremely terrible battle raged on. As they roamed around, the sky was beautiful, as if covered with swarms of fireflies.23 That fierce and tumultuous clash raged on for some time. As they fought, both scorchers of enemies were exhausted. Having rested for a short while, those scorchers of enemies again grasped their sparkling clubs and attacked each other. Those immensely valorous bulls among men looked like strong elephants, intolerant with pride and wishing to indulge in intercourse. With clubs in their hands, those infinitely valorous ones glanced towards each other. The gods, the gandharvas and the danavas were overcome by supreme wonder. On seeing Duryodhana and Vrikodara wield those clubs, all the beings were uncertain about who would be victorious. The brothers, supreme among strong ones, attacked each other again."
Part 2
"They circled around each other, seeking to detect a weakness in each other. O king! The spectators saw that they raised those heavy and terrible clubs, which were like Yama’s staff or Indra’s vajra. In that encounter, when Bhimasena struck with his club, in an instant, it produced a terrible and fierce sound. Dhritarashtra’s son saw that Pandava was striking dexterously and powerfully with his club and was astounded. O descendant of the Bharata lineage! As the brave Vrikodara roamed around, executing many different kinds of motions, he looked resplendent. They protected themselves and attacked each other. They repeatedly wounded each other, like hungry cats over food. Bhimasena moved around in many different kinds of motions. He executed circular motions in different spots, wonderful zigzag movements, advancing and retreating. He countered strikes, struck, avoided and chased. He adopted positions that were meant for attack. He defended, restrained himself, leapt up and leapt down. Both of them were skilled in fighting with clubs and wielded them, high and low. The best among the Kuru lineage roamed around in this way, striking each other and avoiding each other. The extremely strong ones sported, executing circular motions. With clubs in their hands, those powerful ones whirled around. O king! Dhritarashtra’s son struck from the right side. Bhimasena struck from the left side. O great king! As Bhima strode around in that field of battle, Duryodhana struck him on his flank. O descendant of the Bharata lineage! When Bhima was thus struck by your son, he whirled his heavy club, thinking about how he should strike. O great king! Bhimasena’s upraised and terrible club was seen to be like Indra’s vajra or like Yama’s staff."
Part 3
"On seeing that Bhimasena was whirling his club around, your son, the scorcher of enemies, raised his terrible club and struck him again. O descendant of the Bharata lineage! Your son’s club descended with the violence of a storm. A tumultuous sound was raised and sparks were generated. Suyodhana was energetic and radiant. As he roamed around and executed many kinds of circular motions, he again got the better of Bhima. When Bhima used his gigantic club to strike with great force, smoke and sparks of fire were generated and there was also a loud and terrible sound. On seeing that Bhimasena was whirling his club, the radiant Suyodhana whirled his heavy club, which possessed the essence of stone. The great-souled one’s club had the violence of a storm. Beholding this, all the Pandus and the Somakas were terrified. They were seen in that encounter, as if they were sporting in the field of battle. Those two scorchers of enemies violently struck each other with their clubs. They were like elephants, goring each other with their tusks. O great king! With blood flowing down, they were beautiful. Thus did the battle, terrible in form, rage on. At the end of the day, it was cruel, like that between Vritra and Vasava. On seeing that Bhima was stationed, your immensely strong son executed wonderful and colourful motions and attacked Kounteya. Bhima became angry. With great force, he struck that golddecorated club.24 O great king! Sparks began to fly and there was a clap, as if lightning was mixed with thunder. O great king! Hurled powerfully by Bhimasena, the club descended and made the earth tremble. Kouravya could not tolerate that his club should be countered in the clash. He was like a crazy elephant, angered at the sight of another elephant. O king! Enraged and having made up his mind, from the left, he powerfully struck Kounteya on the head with the club. O great king! Struck in this way by your son, Pandava Bhima did not tremble and it was extraordinary."
"O king! It was wonderful and all the soldiers honoured him. Despite being struck by the club, Bhima did not waver and did not retreat a step. Bhima, terrible in his valour, picked up a flaming club, decorated with gold, which was heavier and hurled this towards Duryodhana.25 However, displaying his dexterity, the immensely strong Duryodhana freed himself from that thrust and it was extremely wonderful. O king! The club hurled by Bhima was baffled and fell down with the loud noise of a storm and made the earth tremble. Repeatedly resorting to the koushika26 technique of jumping up and circling, he27 discerned when Bhimasena would strike down with the club and deceived him. Having thus deceived Bhima, the immensely strong one, supreme among the Kuru lineage, angrily struck him in the chest with the club. Struck by the club in that great encounter, Bhima was stupefied. Having been struck by your son, he did not know what he should do. O king! At that time, the Somakas and the Pandavas were severely distressed and miserable in their minds. Having been struck, he28 became as enraged as an elephant and attacked your son, like an elephant against another elephant."
"The proud Bhima attacked your son with the club. He rushed forward with force, like a lion against a wild elephant. O king! He was skilled in releasing the club. Approaching the king, he used the club to strike in your son’s direction. Duryodhana was struck in the flank by Bhimasena. He was stupefied by this blow and sank down on his knees on the ground. O lord of the earth! At this, the Srinjayas let out a loud roar. O best of the Bharata lineage! On hearing the roar of the Srinjayas, your son, bull among men, became angry. The mighty-armed one raised himself, like an angry serpent that was sighing. He glanced towards Bhimasena and burnt him down with his sight. With the club in his hand, the great-souled one, best among the Bharata lineage, attacked and, in that clash, struck the great-souled Bhimasena on his head. Bhima was terrible in his valour. Though he was struck on his head, he did not waver, like a mountain. O king! Struck by the club in that encounter, blood began to flow from Partha and he was as beautiful as an elephant with a shattered temple."
Part 4
"Dhananjaya’s brave elder brother then picked up a club that was made out of iron and was capable of slaying heroes. It made a sound like that of the vajra. The destroyer of enemies struck powerfully with this. Struck in this way by Bhimasena, your son fell down, with his body trembling. He was like a blossoming shala tree in a large forest, whirled around by the force of a storm. On seeing that your son had fallen down on the ground, the Pandavas roared in delight. Your son recovered his senses and rose, like an elephant from a lake. The king was always intolerant. He skilfully circled around and struck Pandava, who was stationed before him, making him lose control over his limbs and fall down on the ground. In that encounter, on seeing that the infinitely energetic Bhima had fallen down on the ground, Kourava roared like a lion. Though he29 was like the thunder in his energy, the descent of the club shattered his body armour. At this, a loud roar was heard in the firmament, made by the residents of heaven and the apsaras. The immortals showered down many kinds of excellent flowers. On seeing that the supreme among men had fallen down on the ground, great fear entered the hearts of the enemies. Because of the force of Kourava’s blow, the firm armour had been shattered. However, he30 recovered his senses in a short while and wiped away the blood from his face. Resorting to his fortitude and recovering his strength, Vrikodara dilated his eyes and steadied himself."
(Shalya Parva Section 57):
Part 1
"Understanding the sign, Bhima roamed around with his club in the battle. He executed wonderful circular motions and doubled back. He circled to the right and the left and alternated between the two. O king! Pandava roamed around confounding the enemy. In that fashion, your son was also skilled in executing motions with the club. Wishing to kill Bhimasena, he roamed around, executing dexterous and wonderful motions. They whirled terrible clubs that had been smeared with sandalwood paste and unguents. They were like two angry Yamas, wishing to bring an end to the hostility. Those foremost ones, bulls among men, wished to kill each other. They fought like two Garudas who were after the same serpent. O king! Both of them executed wonderful circular motions."
Part 2
"Because of the descent of the clubs, sparks of fire were generated there. In the encounter, those brave and powerful ones struck each other equally. O king! They were like two oceans agitated by storms. Like crazy elephants, they struck each other equally. Thunderous sounds were generated from the blows of the clubs. That fierce and terrible clash continued. As they fought, both scorchers of enemies were exhausted. Having rested for some time, those scorchers of enemies again angrily grasped their giant clubs and attacked. O Indra among kings! They fought a terrible battle with the descending clubs and severely wounded each other. With eyes like bulls, they spiritedly rushed towards each other. Those brave ones fiercely struck each other, like buffaloes stuck in mud. All their limbs were mangled and they were covered with blood. They looked like two flowering kimshukas on the Himalayas."
Part 3
"Partha showed Duryodhana a weakness and smiling, he suddenly extended himself forwards.34 Vrikodara was learned about fighting. On seeing the advance, the strong one powerfully hurled the club. O lord of the earth! Seeing that the club had been hurled, your son moved from the spot and baffled, it fell down on the ground. Having respectfully warded off that blow, your son, supreme among the Kuru lineage, struck Bhimasena with the club. Struck severely by that blow and with blood flowing down, the infinitely energetic one was stupefied. However, in that encounter, Duryodhana did not realize that Pandava was afflicted. Though his body suffered great pain, Bhima bore himself. He35 thought that he was still steady and ready to strike back in the encounter. That is the reason your son did not strike him again. O king! Having rested for a while, the powerful Bhimasena attacked Duryodhana, who was stationed before him, with force. O bull among the Bharata lineage! On seeing that the angry and infinitely energetic one was attacking, he wished to save himself from the blow."
Part 4
Your great-minded son made up his mind to take a stand. O king! He leapt up, wishing to deceive Vrikodara. However, Bhimasena understood what the king wished to do. He dashed forward, roaring like a lion. O king! As the king leapt up to avoid the blow, Pandava powerfully struck him on the thighs with the club. He was terrible in his deeds and struck with a force like that of the vajra. Duryodhana’s handsome thighs were fractured. The tiger among men fell down, making the earth resound. O lord of the earth! Your son’s thighs were fractured by Bhimasena.
Analysis: In section 56 it is written that Duryodhana decieved Bhima. So rules were already broken by Duryodhana, no one cares if he struck the thighs (it is Duryodhana's job to protect his thighs).
Both Duryodhana and Bhima rested 2 times while the mace fight was continuing to go on and on and on, but Bhima rested a 3rd time.
Bhima was stupified twice. Duryodhana was stupefied twice. Duryodhana got the better of Bhima twice. Ultimately Bhima is the one who won & fought smarter. He took a defensive position but made Duryodhana believe that Bhima was attacking instead of defending. Bhima is the better fighter and defeated Duryodhana, but Duryodhana did perform well, that's all.
Krishna & Arjuna's conversation about this:
Arjuna spoke to the illustrious Vasudeva. ‘Between those two brave ones who are fighting, who do you think is superior? O Janardana! Who possesses the greater qualities? Tell me. Vasudeva replied, ‘They are equal in what they have learnt, but Bhima is stronger. However, Dhritarashtra’s son is superior to Vrikodara because of the efforts that he has undertaken. Using dharma, Bhimasena will not be able to win this encounter. He will be able to kill Suyodhana only if he fights through unfair means. It has been heard that the gods defeated the asuras through the use of maya. The slayer of Bala robbed Vritra of his energy through maya. O Dhananjaya! At the time of gambling with the dice, Bhima took a pledge that in the encounter, he would shatter Suyodhana’s thighs with a club. This destroyer of enemies needs to accomplish that pledge. The king uses maya31 and has to be brought down through maya.
Having made up his mind, he has practised with the club for thirteen years. Wishing to kill Bhimasena, he leaps up and moves diagonally. If the mighty-armed one does not slay him through unfair means, Kourava, Dhritarashtra’s son, will be the king.’ ‘ “Hearing Keshava’s words, the great-souled Dhananjaya glanced in Bhimasena’s direction and slapped his thigh with his hand.33
Analysis: Krishna says that they are equal in knowledge, bhima is superior in strength, Duryodhana ais superior due to his effort. krishna also said that Duryodhana uses deception (maya) to fight, so he can only be defeated by unfair means. Their is nothing wrong in defeating a unfair fighter through unfair methods.
About the roars of hanuman: None of the text states that Hanuman ever roared.
According to Adi parva their was a battle and not just meeting between hanuman and Bhima: "his consequent battle with the mighty Rakshasas and the Yakshas of great prowess including Hanuman;" "Then is narrated the ascent on the hills of Kailasa by Bhimasena, his terrific battle with the mighty Yakshas headed by Hanuman;"
https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m01/m01003.htm

33 comments:

  1. Bhagadatta was not the son of Naraka because Naraka was the son of either Vishnu, Earth or Hiranyaksha, while this is the name of Bhagdatta's grandpa:
    "After the same manner, king Sailalaya, the grandfather of Bhagadatta, attained to the region of Indra by the power alone of his penances."
    https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m15/m15020.htm

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    1. Bhishma did a digvijay:
      "Inflamed with anger upon the death of his father, this Bhishma (amongst us) in days of old had conquered all the kings of the earth, on a single car. O Bharata, his wrath excited, that best of the Kurus smote numberless ones amongst them, whereupon from fear, they are surrendered to this Devavrata seeking his protection."
      http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m05/m05055.htm
      Drupada wanted revenge:
      paid his adoration to the god Sankara for the sake of offspring, resolving in his mind to compass my destruction and practising the austerest of penances. And he begged Mahadeva, saying, "Let a son, and not a daughter, be born unto me. I desire, O god, a son for revenging myself upon Bhishma."
      http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m05/m05191.htm
      Kunti was abandoned by Bhishma:
      “Abandoned, O chastiser of foes, by my own father, and my father-in law, and afflicted with insufferable woes, what use, O Madhava, is there in my being alive?”
      http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m05/m05090.htm
      Yudhishthir claims the conduct of Bhishma is a reason for Kunti's unhappiness:
      "Ever since her marriage she hath been the victim, however undeserving, of sorrow and griefs due to the conduct of her father-in-law, and suffering hath been her position."
      http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m05/m05083.htm
      Bhishma knew Kunti had a illegitimate child (karna):
      "Thou art Kunti's son, not Radha's! Nor is Adhiratha thy father! O thou of mighty arms, I heard all this about thee from Narada as also from Krishna-Dwaipayana! Without doubt, all this is true!"
      http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m06/m06124.htm
      Bhishma killed Kunti's family in the Kurukshetra war:
      "The Kuntis possessed of great prowess in battle, endued with great energy and great might, have been slain in fight by Bhishma, with all their kinsmen and advisers."
      http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m08/m08006.htm

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    2. Kunti feared Bhishma:
      "As I reflect on this, my heart swelleth with sorrow. The grandsire (Bhishma), the son of Santanu, the preceptor (Drona), who is the foremost of warriors, and Karna, having embraced Duryodhana's side, enhance my fears."
      https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m05/m05144.htm
      Pandu, Dhritarashtra & Vidura trained under Bhishma:
      “And Dhritarashtra and Pandu and Vidura of great intelligence were from their birth brought up by Bhishma, as if they were his own sons. And the children, having passed through the usual rites of their order, devoted themselves to vows and study. And they grew up into fine young men skilled in the Vedas and all athletic sports. And they became well-skilled in the practice of bow, in horsemanship, in encounters with mace, sword and shield, in the management of elephants in battle, and in the science of morality.”
      http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m01/m01110.htm
      Bhishma trained sons of Dhrishtadyumna:
      “Those children who, giving up all (childish) sports for twelve years, and observing excellent vows, waited upon Bhishma for the sake of weapons, those children, viz., Kshatranjaya and Kshatradeva and Kshatravarman and Manada, those heroic sons of Dhrishtadyumna, O, who resisted them, seeking to keep them away from Drona?”
      http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m07/m07010.htm
      He trained another man named Sarangadhwaja:
      “Obtaining weapons then from Bhishma and Drona, Rama and Kripa, prince Sarangadhwaja became, in weapons, the equal of Rukmi and Karna and Arjuna and Achyuta.”
      http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m07/m07023.htm
      Gandhari claims Bhishma already died in the war and his corpse was their on the battlefield, he was dead and thus didn't do anything in Anusasana/Santi Parva's:
      “This mighty-armed one, having fought Dhananjaya, the son of Pritha, and having reduced him to great straits, was at last slain by his antagonist. He who had no equal on earth in heroism and energy, that achiever of terrible feats in battle, Bhishma, lieth there, deprived of life.”
      http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m11/m11022.htm

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  2. Parshuram was a beggar:
    "Like unto a blazing fire, that son was Rama, the exterminator of the Kshatriyas. Having gratified Mahadeva on the mountains of Gandhamadana, he begged weapons of that great god, especially the axe of fierce energy in his hands. In consequence of that unrivalled axe of fiery splendour and irresistible sharpness, he became unrivalled on earth." (words of Vasudev) https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m12/m12a049.htm

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    1. Parshuram killed little kids (yet people are angry at Indra for killing child hanuman):
      "Rama once more slaughtered them quickly, not sparing the very children, O king! Indeed, the earth became once more strewn with the bodies of Kshatriya children of premature birth. As soon as Kshatriya children were born, Rama slaughtered them."
      https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m12/m12a049.htm

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  3. Parshuram was called coward by Brahmins:
    Filled then with compassion, he retired into the woods. Afterwards, when some thousands of years had passed away, the puissant Rama, who was wrathful by nature, had imputations cast upon him (of cowardice). The grandson of Viswamitra and son of Raivya, possessed of great ascetic merit, named Paravasu, O monarch, began to cast imputations on Rama in public, saying, "O Rama, were not those righteous men, viz., Pratardana and others, who were assembled at a sacrifice at the time of Yayati's fall, Kshatriyas by birth? Thou art not of true vows, O Rama! Thine is an empty boast among people. Through fear of Kshatriya heroes thou hast betaken thyself to the mountains." The descendant of Bhrigu, hearing these words of Paravasu, once more took up arms and once more strewed the earth with hundreds of Kshatriya bodies.
    https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m12/m12a049.htm

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    1. PARSHURAM WORSHIPED YUDHISHTHIRA: "Then all those Brahmanas who were with Yudhishthira worshipped Vaka of the Dalvya race, and having heard him praise Yudhishthira became highly pleased. And Dwaipayana and Narada and Jamadagnya and Prithusravas; and Indradyumna and Bhalaki and Kritachetas and Sahasrapat; and Karnasravas and Munja and Lavanaswa and Kasyapa; and Harita and Sthulakarana and Agnivesya and Saunaka; and Kritavak and Suvakana Vrihadaswa and Vibhavasu; and Urdharetas and Vrishamitra and Suhotra and Hotravahana; these and many other Brahmanas of rigid vows then adored Yudhishthira like Rishis adoring Purandara in heaven!"
      https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m03/m03026.htm

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  4. Bhishma claims that it is dharma of Kshatriya race to kill their gurus, fathers and family in war:
    "Duty of Kshatriyas is to cast away their bodies, O Krishna, in battle. A Kshatriya should stay sires and grandsires and brothers and preceptors and relatives and kinsmen that may engage with him in unjust battle. This is their declared duty. That Kshatriya, O Kesava, is said to be acquainted with his duty who slays in battle his very preceptors if they happen to be sinful and covetous and disregardful of restraints and vows."
    https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m12/m12a054.htm

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    1. Bhisma believed women should only marry those men who are three times their age:
      "A person of thirty years of age should wed a girl of ten years of age called a Nagnika. 1 Or, a person of one and twenty years of age should wed a girl of seven years of age."
      https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m13/m13b009.htm
      He also said that a woman who has no brother or father should never get married:
      "That girl who has no brother nor father should not be wed, O chief of Bharata's race, for she may be intended as Putrika of her sire."
      https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m13/m13b009.htm

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  5. https://www.quora.com/How-did-gambling-occur-in-the-Dyuta-Krida-in-Mahabharata-What-was-the-process-of-gambling/answer/Jaideep-Singh-Gill-3 Describing the game of chausar.

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  6. Pandavas were Kauravas:
    "I am happy to hear, as I do from sheer good fortune, that our father's sister Pritha with the foremost of the Kaurava princes have all escaped (from death)!"
    Here sons of Kunti were called Kaurava's: https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m01/m01192.htm

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  7. Arjuna defeated the king of Kirata in a pre kurukshetra battle:
    Those other elephants, O king, seven hundred in number, that thou seest, all cased in armour and ridden by Kiratas, and decked with ornaments, the king of the Kiratas, desirous of his life, had formerly presented to Savyasachin together with many servants in their train. These, O king, were formerly employed in doing thy business. Behold the vicissitudes that time brings about, for these are now battling against thee. Those elephants are ridden by Kiratas difficult of defeat in battle. They are accomplished in fighting from elephants, and are all sprung from the race of Agni. Formerly, they were all vanquished in battle by Savyasachin. They are now waiting for me carefully, under the orders of Duryodhana.
    https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m07/m07108.htm

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  8. Nara was avatar of Vishnu:
    "I have heard also of the birth of the Supreme Deity in the house of Dharma, in the form of Nara and Narayana. I have also heard from thee the origin of the Pinda from the mighty Baraha (Boar) (which form the supreme Deity had assumed for raising by the submerged Earth). I have heard from thee about those deities and Rishis that were ordained for the religion of Pravritti and of those that were ordained for the religion of Nivritti."
    http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m12/m12c047.htm
    Arjuna is Nara:
    "O thou irrepressible one, thou art Nara and I am Narayana or Hari! We are the Rishis Nara and Narayana born in the world of men for a special purpose. O Partha, thou art from me and I am from thee!"
    http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m03/m03012.htm

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    1. Nara was vishnu/vaikuntha:
      “It is Nara and Narayana, endued with omniscience, that destroyeth all creatures. 2 The gods speak of him as Vaikuntha (of immeasurable puissance), while men call him Vishnu (one that pervadeth the Universe)!”
      http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m06/m06008.htm

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    2. Aniruddha avatar of Narayana:
      "Deserving art thou of the highest praise, and highly favoured hast thou been, since thou hast beheld the puissant Narayana himself (in the form of Aniruddha)."
      http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m12/m12c044.htm

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  9. Bhishma being king.
    1st quote:
    "he that was born of the energy of the Vasus, when he, that ruler of the earth, hath once more been united with the Vasus,"
    https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m07/m07002.htm
    2nd quote (although his brother was king it was Bhishma who was manipulating, his younger bro was a puppet):
    "And Vichitravirya, placing himself under the command of Bhishma, ruled the ancestral kingdom."
    https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m01/m01102.htm
    3rd quote (he was directly the ruler when his sibling was young):
    "after Chitrangada was slain, his successor Vichitravirya being a minor, Bhishma ruled the kingdom"
    https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m01/m01103.htm
    4th quote (taking advantage of his nephews childhood):
    "O king, virtuously ruled by Bhishma, the kingdom was adorned with hundreds of sacrificial stakes. And the wheel of virtue having been set in motion by Bhishma, and the country became so contented that the subjects of other kingdoms, quitting their homes, came to dwell there"
    https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m01/m01110.htm
    5th quote:
    "Santanu's son, the Vasu born of Ganga, named Devavrata resembled Santanu himself in personal beauty, in habits and behaviour, and in learning. And in all branches of knowledge worldly or spiritual his skill was very great. His strength and energy were extraordinary. He became a mighty car-warrior. In fact he was a great king."
    https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m01/m01101.htm
    After reading all this only a liar can claim he was never a king of that kingdom.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Valmiki being a theif:
      "Some amongst them are even thieves (like Valmiki in his early years and Viswamitra during a famine)."
      https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m13/m13a033.htm
      Valmiki killing Brahmins:
      Then the illustrious Valmiki said "Once upon a time, in course of a dialectical disputation, certain ascetics that were possessors of the homa fire denounced me as one guilty of Brahmanicide. As soon as they had denounced me as such, the sin of Brahmanicide, O Bharata, possessed me."
      https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m13/m13a018.htm

      Delete
  10. Replies
    1. Well i dont really understand the point of your comment. If youre trying to show that Bhima was THE STRONGEST (in pure strength, unarmed combat etc no weapons) then you are wrong. Its true Bhima is 1 of the TOP-TIER warriors in this category of fighting but that did not make him the best in that category.

      Most of Bhima's battles were with arrows and bows, he rarely threw spears, wielded maces that is a fact. And most of his battles were in Kurukshetra, the only big war he fought before that was his digvijay campaign over their most of the battles were not elaborated on so we dont know if Bheem used a mace or sword in those wars to conquer Anga, Vanga, Pundra etc.

      But for mace fighters i would not put Jarasandh in that list, he was a big powerhouse but still had no written records of achievements with the mace, all he ever did was throw it as if it was a dart, here is the reference BELOW:
      ------------
      "Jarasandha, excited with wrath, hurled for our destruction a mace capable of slaying all creatures. Endued with the splendour of fire, that mace coursed towards us dividing the welkin like the line on the head that parts the tresses of a woman, and with the impetuosity of the thunder hurled by Sakra. Beholding that mace thus coursing towards us the son of Rohini hurled the weapon called Sthunakarna for baffling it."
      ---------
      https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m07/m07178.htm Still its not a great feat.

      Duryodhan only had one achievement in mace combat, but Shalya had at least 2 achievements (he held his own against Bheem TWICE) so i put Shalya above Duryodhan, Jarasandh etc in mace fighting.

      When it comes to physical strength then we have to take into account the incidents where Arjun held Krishna back from killing Bhishma TWICE and where Bhishma held Bheem back in the Sabha of Indraprastha where Sisupal provoked Bheem to a fight.

      Bheem was very strong but he is not the foremost, his physical strength could not be of use when Arjuna restrained him in the dice game either.

      Bheem in my opinion is a better archer than Parashuram, a better fighter than Hanuman (i am serious) but at the same time he is not the strongest of his time or 2nd strongest. I may prepare a special post based on just the physical strength of these characters.

      I know you probably wont agree on the hanuman part but i CAN PROVE MY CLAIMS with quotes, sources and explanations.

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    2. Are you Jaideep Singh Gill, or his follower ?? Because your logic sounds as dumb as his.

      Bhima was undoubtedly physically strongest warrior of Kurukshetra War.
      On the 14th day, he killed so many Kings and 2 Kaurav brothers, each killed by a single punch.
      Bhima has other feats like killing Jarasandh in wrestling, killing foremost of Rakshasas in wrestling, killing undefeated wrestler Jimuta, killing feared commander Kichaka with his bare hands. Killing Karna's followers with swords, Easily ripping off Dushasana's arms, killing thousands of elephants with his mace during the war, showed immense durability and stamina during the final standoff versus Duryodhana

      Delete
    3. Also, I agree that Arjuna was physically very very strong. But not stronger than Bhima.

      Arjuna's only physical feat was his fight with Lord Shiva. But remember, that Shiva was only testing and he went easy with Arjuna. But Arjuna still gave him tough fight and he proved great physical strength.

      BUT, how is Arjuna restraining Krishna a feat lol ?? You must be Jaideep Gill for saying that😆🤣. Remember that Krishna is Arjuna's friend and he never used full force on him, so that does not count.

      Also, I belive Duryodhana is superior than Shalya in terms of mace fighting. You should consider that Duryo was student of Balrama who was the physically strongest and best mace fighter of that era. And Duryodhana gave tougher fight to Bhima than Shalya did.

      Even though Duryodhana's feats are not mentioned, you should consider that the story was being narrated to Janamejay who was a Pandav descendant. So, the narrator will obviously give more details about the Pandavs to please Janamejay, that's they they don't specifically mention the feat of others.

      But Vyasa describes Duryodhana and Shalya as "foremost of men well accomplished in the encounterS of mace", so that tells all.

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    4. To call my logic "dumb" or Jaideep's logic as "dumb" is simply disrespectful & shows your mentality of insulting people who respond to you respectfully.

      Maybe you said that just because of your bhakti for weak warriors like hanuman and parashuram... Or because you dont like to see the flaws in your arguments, claims and reasoning. If you wish to debate then you should reply to a single comment of mine with ONE comment instead of spamming threads like this with double posts all the time.

      You refuse to accept Arjuna restraining Krishna as a feat and you refuse to accept that Bheem was restrained by a older weak warrior like Bhishma.

      You made a completely FALSE CLAIM when you said Bheem ripped Duhsasan's arms off because reading Karna Parva shows that Bheem CUT THEM OFF WITH A SWORD he did not use his physical strength to pull anything.

      Killing a bunch of weak warriors with a single punch is no impressive feat or achievement, Arjuna on the 17th day was able to toss down Maharathi-level fighters when they came to his chariot.

      Duryodhan regardless of whatever you claim has never shown to be a better mace warrior than Shalya. He never had the same expertise that his officers had in close combat. Duryodhan was mainly an archer just like Bheem this is a fact.

      If Shiva was really only testing Arjuna then he would not have resorted to magic tricks to fight Arjuna, it shows that Shiva did not have as much strength as Arjuna because he relied on magic.

      Arjun also lifted up the same bow at the Swayamvar that Jarasandh, Shalya, Duryodhan, Karna failed to lift. If u believe this is not a achievement of Arjun then you are denying facts.

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    5. Yes, Arjuna was stronger than Duryodhana, Jarasandh, Karna, etc....

      But I don't understand what's your problem with Lord Hanuman ??

      I mean, Indrajit was an overrated warrior. He was a coward like his rapist dad, and Indrajit always used MAYA, magic, illusions and flew in sky and disappeared like a coward whenever he got his ass kicked.

      If a baccha vanara like Angada made Indrajit a punching bag, then Hanuman would eat him alive.

      Delete
    6. And As per Geeta Press Hindi version with SANSKRI SHLOKAS, in Karna Parva on the 17th day,Bhima used his physical strength (bare arms power) to rip off Dushasana's arm chest.

      Dushasan boasted and mocked Bhima that his right arm dragged and dsirobed Draupadi, so Bhima got angry and ripped it off.

      Bhima used sword only to behead Dushasan.

      As for Duryodhana, I don't understand why you say "he never had expertise like his officers in close combat".

      And, Bhima didn't kill any weak warriors with his fists, He killed powerful demons like Bakasura, Hidimb, Kimira, Jatasura, Maniman, and also countless of elephant legions in the Kurukshetra War with his fists, mace and sword.

      Delete
    7. Respected sir (mr "undisputed") 1st of all i would like to know why after making a comment you choose to delete it later on sometimes after you make a comment on this blog. NOW i will reply to the points you brought up.

      You claim Bhima did not kill weak warriors with his fists, well i despite being very knowledgable, well read, intelligent do not know of any great achievement that the character "MANIMAN" achieved, so Bhima slaying that man is not praiseworthy. Bhima did however slay a very powerful warrior, the only in your LIST that i consider praiseworthy his name is JATASURA because he defeated yudhisthir, sahdev, nakul i think Bhima deserves PRAISE for that feat. But i dont agree with bakasur, hidimv, kirmira being powerful mards.


      As for the whole geeta press thing i am a reader of kmg and bori ce, i do not read hindi but i can speak hindi well.

      If you want me to debate you on Ramayan then 1st please understand that Hanuman was never called a "lord" or "god" he is not worthy of the respect YOU GIVE HIM, And please dont adress Angad as a baccha, he was actually an adult and fierce warrior.

      In my eyes Angad, Sugreev, Vali and another vanar are superior to Hanuman as a warrior. Angad did well against Indrajit but he was not a punching bag at all.

      These days exactly like karna is overrated so is Hanuman. Hanuman was not a great warrior. And Indrajit is no coward, the same illusions he used have been applied by Gods like Vishnu, Shiva and Gandharvas like Chitrasen, Chitra rath.

      Ravan may be a rapist but is his son a rapist? Are the citizens of lanka all rapists? Ravan at least defeated laxman many times, held his own against ram and defeated hanuman in each encounter, only one time hanuman hit ravan from the back like a coward when ravan was not paying attention.

      My favorite characters in Ramayan are Atikay, Laxman and Sugreev. Though i know none of these 3 were the most powerful.

      Delete
    8. Don't forget Bhima had also killed an undefeated wrestler by name of Jeemuta in Virata. And also killed that warlord Kichaka with his hands.

      And I got a question, in Ramayan the villains(like all Ravan's sons, brothers and uncles) did many penances and had many superpowers.

      But in Mahabharata, did any of the 100 Kauravas did penances or had any powers??

      Because villains in Mahabharata, there's only Karna, Bhishma, Drona and Ashwatthama who have powers(we can say one day warrior Jaydratha), b

      But nothing is said about the power of actual Kaurava brothers ??

      And I also don't know whether the Vikarna (mentioned in Bhagavad-Gita) is that Kaurava brother or another Vikarna?

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    9. No none of the kaurav brothers (100 of them) ever did any penance or have special powers. But villains of Ramayan did have such abilities.
      That wrestler named Jimuta may have been undefeated but i have not seen any great achievement from him, i do praise Bhima for his achievement against Keechak as Keechak was powerful so yes Bhima was strong.
      The actual kaurav brothers were mostly weak among them only 4 were decent fighters their names:
      1- Duryodhan
      2- Duhsasan
      3- Durmukha
      4- Vivingsati
      I put the last 2 because Durmukh checked Dhrishtadyumn and Vivingsati put up some fight against Bheem before losing/dying.

      I dont consider Jaydrath a one day warrior. He was more powerful than Karna, at least Jaydrath had 10 nations in his owner ship and he defeated many people. Before the 13th day he had his feats.

      About Vikarna he was not a great warrior so i dont think what is said about him in the gita is true.

      Jaydrath on day 10 proved his power, he also had a better fight with abhimanyu on day 11 than shalya did, even ashwathama on day 13 ran away from abhimanyu.

      Jaydrath also cut off the bows of 4 pandavs on day 7. So Jaydrath is a underrated warrior. One of the top 10 fighters of the kuru sena.

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    10. Yes, it's true that Jaydratha is underrated. But his problem is he couldn't put up some fight against Arjuna on the 14th day.

      I don't blame Jaydratha though, considering he was facing an angry wrathful Arjuna.

      Also, are you from India or USA ?

      Delete
    11. from USA
      jaydrath should not be blamed for failing to put up a fight against Arjun
      but hanuman should be blamed for repeatedly losing to meghanad

      stop overrating hanuman, that bastard is not a god or avatar or amsha

      hanuman is not among the top ten fighters

      jatayu and atikay were better warriors than hanuman

      even in ramayan this hanuma character is not among the best 10

      anyone with brahmastra or divyastra could win agianst hanuman

      and hanuman only lifted small peaks of a mountain he never took up the whole mountain itself

      INDRADEV always took up big mountains

      Delete
  11. It has been 3 days and the special hanuman bhakt ("undisputed" is his username) failed to respond back to me, unable to refute or debunk any of my statements it seems like he conceded to Bheem being inferior to other warriors in strength.

    Logic:

    1st - Arjuna
    2nd - Bheem
    3rd - Shalya
    4th - MAHAAN Duryodhan
    5th - namard Hanuman (the weakest)
    6th - Vidur

    ReplyDelete
  12. Hanuman was physically strongest warrior of Ramayana apart from Lord Rama.

    Ravana couldn't even defeat Sugriva in wrestling, Ravana had to resort to MAYA(deceitful magic) when Sugriva was kicking his ass.

    Hanuman was 10x superior and stronger that Sugriva. If Hanuman wanted, he could kick Ravana flying to Mars.

    Ravana ran away like a coward when Hanuman recovered and you forgot how Hanuman punched and made Ravana tremble like a Gaza building after Israel attack lol.


    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. No way. THe physically strongest warrior was Kumbhkarn, followed by Vali, then Kumbhkarn's son (Kumbha), after him Ravan, next Sugreev, then comes angad. Hanuman never made it to top 5 warriors of ramayan, he would lose to Kabandha, Wiradha and Laxman in a fist fight so please stop overrating this namard yodha.

      When they came into a fist fight then Ravan brutally defeated your hanuman, as for the only time where hanuman punched ravan out that was when Ravan was lifting laxman's corpse. That is being a coward and a true namard.

      Sugreev took 1 thousand punches of ravan and hanuman could not take 2 punches. This shows that Sugreev could kick the ass of 5 hundred hanumans if he wanted too. Stop hyping up hanutati.

      1st - Ravan
      2nd - Sugreev
      3rd - Angad
      4th - Hanuman
      5th - any vanar inferior like dwividh or mainda

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    2. It is hanuman who fled away like a COWARD from the muslims led by Ghazni Sultanate. And hanuman would be defeated by even Duryodhan's beta Laxman, he is a weak warrior.

      Delete

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